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 Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?

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LegendaryPwny



Posts : 103
Join date : 2013-01-15
Age : 20
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:03 pm

I understand that there are some problems with alchemy, introduced by my OC, Rusty, who is linked in my signature. Here are all the times I have used alchemy in the forums that could be questionable:

http://mlp-fim-oc-rp.forumotion.net/t1903p15-the-shala-train-does-its-rounds#25302

http://mlp-fim-oc-rp.forumotion.net/t1281p30-ruins-of-trottingham-neutral

Link to the rules: http://mlp-fim-oc-rp.forumotion.net/t1169-the-rules

There are many things that alchemy can do, and I do admit that I got carried away in Shala Train with the balista chair. Here is what alchemy can do if all of it is allowed:

Creation of complex potions in an alchemical lab; type of potions allowed are so far what is on my OC's description, which I will relist here:
"Potions: Minor healing, extra hair, strong jaws and teeth, changing the Hertz range on hearing abilities, cold blooded vs warm blooded, smoke filtering, able to see and hear ghosts (if that's not canon enough, I won't use it), smoke screen

AU potions: Those mentioned above, wall-walking, thermal vision, x-ray vision"

Transmute objects, which can be explained by saying it is making a potion that isn't a liquid and doesn't change some sort of characteristic when consumed. The way it works is that somepony draws a "transmutation circle," and the ingredients for the desired result inside the circle. The alchemist then places his hooves on the circle and thinks about the desired result to activate the transmutation. If done correctly, the transmutation should be successful.

A "transmutation circle" is a circle with complex designs inside said circle. Here is a picture of one:

In MLP, Zecora's methods for making potions are how potions would be made on

The agreed upon rules in the chatbox, from what I remember, are:

An average circle that is about as big as an adult pony uses up 1/10 of a chalk stick
Drawing a transmutation circle should take an entire turn. If it's bigger than a pony, it should take longer.

It has to follow the principle of equal exchange. Basically, that means if I were to turn something into an orange, I'd have to have the ingredients that make up an orange, in addition to the thing I'm turning, or, transmuting, into an orange, and that object has to have at least some of the ingredients for the orange. This is unlike how Twilight Sparkle was trying to turn things into apples but turned them into oranges on accident.

Alchemy is not magic, so therefore one doesn't have to be a unicorn to use alchemy.

Obviously, if it were allowed like this, like I demonstrated in Shala, alchemy would break Rule C.i.4.

Rules that I would like to add are:

The more complex the transmutation, the longer it would take to draw it, since a more complex transmutation probably requires a more complex transmutation circle.

Transmutations shouldn't be used to instantly fix an object or turn an object into a weapon of major destruction. The rule of thumb here would be that, if it would be ridiculous for a unicorn to do something similar, don't do it.

All potions on an alchemist must be stated before they are used or the beginning of the thread. Can't have more than 3 potions at a time unless if the thread is an AU, and is combat based (i.e. folly of the elite)

Also, when I said "balista" in the Shala thread, I meant this: http://scoutpioneering.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/ballistadrawing.jpg

If it's decided that transmutation stuff is taken out altogether, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However I think a really controlled version that takes a lot of creativity would be pretty interesting.
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Rosey Bubbles



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PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:43 pm

I never remembered alchemy like you are describing to be canon in the show...sure Zequora made brews but that was to cure things, they were more like herbal remedies. I don''t remember her ever making a potion for "extras hair" or "warm/cold bloodedness"

Sorry to be a Negative Nancy.
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Rosey Bubbles



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PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:44 pm

Oh, and my position is not allow alchemy. Too made up. (If you couldn't tell)
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LegendaryPwny



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Age : 20
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:47 pm

Yeah I know. I see what you're saying. But the potions though should be ok.
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Blind Side



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Age : 24
Location : Canterlot

PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:58 pm

My main concern with Alchemy is that it would be really easy to get carried away with it. It would require much more concentration from the staff in order to make sure it all stays acceptable. It would require a lot more time and effort on our part that we simply can't spare.

The thing is, I don't think the comparison to Zecora is really fair, because Zecora is a Zebra. the thing that makes Zebras unique is that they are naturally more in-touch with this kind of thing. If we let just anybody do the same stuff, that would remove what makes them unique. Not to mention that Zecora's talent is doing that kind of thing and her skill in it would be far above what anyone's OCs should have.

If it were up to me alone, I would have said no to alchemy all together because the fact remains that this would make it really easy for someone to hijack someone else's thread, and it would quickly get way out of hand.

In my opinion, This kind of thing is best kept in the AU. but that is my opinion. it still depends on what the majority says.

With all that said, I'd be ok with the stuff like smoke screen and smoke filtering.

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Amber Flash



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PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:24 pm

I think alchemy is good if very limited. As in maybe your pony has some crazy lab set up in their basement or something. But one thing our forum can be proud of is that we dont' have to worry about rules and regulations that have to be memorized for things such as what can be done in a turn, or rules for magic. This site is first and foremost a site about characters. If alchemy is going to be a thing, it has to be a very large and heavy thing about your character, not just a side thing about your character that you want to have for whatever reason.
The use and power of alchemy should be downplayed. Like some old professor sitting in his basement mixing up concoctions and trying to find the Philosopher's Stone. Not just a power a pony can have on hand to do whatever they want. It can become too overpowered and can easily be used to hijack threads.
Also, having a very limited number of potions (Not something related to traditional alchemy by the way) will make it hard on the staff to keep track of. Every single thread with alchemy in it would have to be read over. Also, what if members come up with very valid reasons for simple potions they have to use? For every idea, a group of staff would have to agree on it, post that it is now allowed, then make sure all of the staff are in agreement. That is nto very fair to them.

So, if you want alchemy, then go for it. But I think it should be downplayed in power and become a major part of the character rather than just some power a pony decides to have.

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Korenav
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PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:34 pm

In my opinion, alchemy in the reguard of drawing circles or doing anything aside from the traditional alchemy we use in real life should continue to be disallowed. We already have rules saying that 'Supernatural abilities' cannot be used. Considering that the show does not demonstrate these kinds of mechanics, it is unnecessary and deviates from the show.

This mechanic, to my understanding, comes from another show called 'Full Metal Alchemist' which has its own mechanics and understanding. Taking those and applying them here is an outright crossover and should be an AU.

Normal Alchemy and potion making with fantasy influences i can get behind. But what these mechanics do is something else entirely. There are many forums that adopt variations and such from the show, but this forum, from the time i started here, has run on the idea of staying close to the shows canon and being permissive only if it were truly believable to the show.

I don't think its an issue with regulating alchemy or defining it in the rules more. I think the whole 'anime alchemy' as a whole is a mechanic that is simply not compatible at all with the forum and will only change if staff majority says otherwise.

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1ncnspcuous
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PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:50 pm

Blind, Sunny, and Kore represent my opinion precisely. The incorporation of alchemy creates too huge a risk of abuse for it to be acceptable in a dynamic RP environment. To reiterate, you're more than welcome to make use of it in AUs. In the other subforums, however, it is not permitted.

Thank you and apologies for the concise writing.
1nc
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dontpressenter
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PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:50 am

Since most of everyone else have made their opinions and points heard, I'll be even more precise.

Brewing potions with minor effects? Cool, if that is your pony's main schtick.

Complex transmutation, including the caveat that it is 'not magic'? Not so cool. Especially if it is based primarily off another franchise.

So I'll accept 'alchemy' in the RL sense, which is basically mixing stuff together and hoping to get it to its 'purest' existence (classically, making metals into gold and making mortals immortal) or a form of proto-chemistry. Or maybe actual chem, since MLP's tech doesn't play by our rules time wise. I won't accept transmutation.

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Firework



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PostSubject: Re: Alchemy- to ban or not to ban?   Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:15 am

I was asked yesterday to look at Legendary's changes, and I admit that while I took issue with several of the potions, I had not seen much wrong with it. However, the issue seems to demand more attention than that I could give while on a phone in an airport.

My well rested opinion is this: I think the changes made to Rusty are fine, aside from the transmutation aspect. Alchemy as a skill is common throughout books, video games, and tv shows that contain fantasy elements. I would definitely categorize My Little Pony as having such elements, and so I believe that alchemy would not be out of place should it exist.

Transmutation, on the other hand, is not nearly so prevalent (despite being tied to alchemy), and therefore I cannot agree with its possible existence in My Little Pony. As a (marketed) children's show, the creators would never include such a complicated skill and practice, therefore it's unjustifiable to include it in a character's skill sets.

I like Rusty's creativity on creating a character that creates potions that enhances certain physical abilities for a short amount of time, such as enhancing the eyes to filter through smoke, enhanced hearing, etc. In the case of an alchemical character, should they be approved, is that they must submit all potions that that pony can create to the moderators and admins for approval, and a vast majority (save 1) is required for approval of the list. Changes can of course be made, and should the potions be considered to easy to abuse, or too OP, then the pony will not be approved.

That being said, I'll assume Rusty's potions may take a certain amount of time to take effect, so he cannot immediately respond to an event or threat that other ponies take time to respond to.

It is a complicated subject to be sure, but I think Alchemy, as I have restricted it to trait enhancing potions, is allowable and should neither overly complicate any topics nor will it cause OPness. If we trust Unicorns with magic that we include limitations on (though Unicorns are DEFINITELY canon in the show), then I believe alchemy with limitations is perfectly fine. Except for use of the transmutation circle. I don't agree with that.
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